- The Concept of Personality
Revealed Through The Pancanikaya
- Ven. Thich Chon-Thien
- Part Four: Pancakkhandhā and
- IV.1 Chapter 1
- Individual Desire
Mentioning the doubts about the Existence
of no-suffering and the desireless way of life, a thought arises in the authors mind
that: just as questions about the Earth and the estimates made by a fish sound very
strange to a person, it is so for the questions and estimates made by a person who has not
experienced the operation of wisdom and the desireless way of life. That thought reminds
him of the search for the truth of desire for things but not for the reasonable answers to
Lord Buddhas teaching regards only
the truth of suffering (dukkha), the cause of suffering that is desire for sensuality,
existence and non-existence (samudaya), the extinction of suffering (nirodha) and the way
to the extinction of suffering (magga) as what He taught in His first discourse of
"Turning the Wheel of Dhamma" at the Deer Park. In this part of the work, the
second Noble Truth is discussed.
As introduced in (II.2.2.), in the
beginning, the first people existed were those came into existence from the State of
Abhassara Brahmā. They were mind - made, feeding on delight, self luminous, moving
through the air, glorious.... No male and female were discriminated. Then, after a short
period of time, the greediness of manappeared; then desire for sensuality arose in them.
They became more and more greedy, owing to this, their body turned coarser and coarser;
the best looking human being was the one who desired for sensuality the least. After that,
came the period of time when males developed male sex-organs, females developed female
sex-organs, then their passions increased and their body burnt with lust: sexual
intercourses appeared. The first intercourses were cursed by the masses; those who made
love were thrown dust, ashes, and were not allowed to live together with the masses in
villages for two months. When the phenomenon of sexual intercourse became more popular,
sexual life were accepted openly by the masses. Human society were formed with its social
organization from that time...
The above story about the formation of
human society is recorded in the Discourse on "On Knowledge of Beginnings",
Dėghanikāya, sutta No 27. It is declared by Lord Buddha Himself through the vision of
the Enlightened One. This is reality but not speculation. With regard to that story,
sensual and sexual desire is not the basic instinct of human beings: it is but a
degradation of human mind when the greediness (lobha) of man is strongly developed by the
operation of ignorance (avijjā). Nowadays, sexual desire is being developed so strongly
that it becomes a very important need of man, and sexual actions are being commercialized
openly. This is a big problem to be discussed.
IV.1.1: SENSUAL DESIRE
Sensual desire belongs to craving, which,
as defined in (II.1.2.), includes craving for sense pleasures, for existence and for
non-existence, or includes six groups called craving for things seen, for things heard,
for odours, for tastes, for things tangible and for ideas. Except the sphere of ideas, the
first five spheres are called sensual craving.
In the beginning men enjoyed self-delight,
the delight arising in their mind. Sensual pleasures came afterwards and became their
need, then their crucial need, then appeared as the meaning of human life which controlled
mens mental activities. Since then, mens sensual desire turned to be the chief
cause of a culture called culture of sensuality. This culture, in its turn, has put strong
influences on mens thoughts and feelings and brought up mens sensual desire.
In another aspect of life, being impermanent, sensual pleasures cannot fulfill mens
strong desire. The more men feel unsatisfied with sensual pleasures and sexual pleasures,
the more they thirst for them. Now, mens sensual and sexual desires together with
their culture of sensuality make up a new operation of feeling and thinking and force them
to regard sensuality and sexuality as basic instincts without seeing the way out. For this
operation, Lord Buddha twenty six centuries ago said:
" Monks, I know of no other single form by which a
mans heart is so enslaved as it is by that of a woman. Monks, a womans form
obsesses a mans heart. Monks, I know of no other single sound bywhich a mans
heart is so enslaved as it is by the voice of a woman.Monks, a womans voice obsesses
a mans heart. Monks, I know of no other single scent... savour... touch by which a
mans heart is so enslaved as it is by the scent, savour, and touch of a woman.
Monks, the scent, savour and touch of a woman obsess a mans heart.
Monks, I know of no other single form, sound, scent,
savour and touch by which a womans heart is so enslaved as it is by the form, sound,
scent, savour and touch of a man. Monks, a womans heart is obsessed by these
("Naham, bhikkhave, annam ekarupam pi
samanupassāmi yam evam purisassa cittam pariyādāya titthati yathayidam, bhikkhave,
Itthiruųpam, bhikkhave, purisassa cittam pariyādāya
Naham, bhikkhave, annam ekasaddam pi ... ekagandham
pi... ekarasam pi .. ekaphotthabbam pi .. samanupassāmi yam evam purisassa cittam
pariyādāya titthati yathayidam, bhikkhave, itthisaddo (itthigandho, itthiraso,
Naham, bhikkhave, annam ekaruųpam pi... ekasaddam
pi ... ekagandham pi ... ekarasam pi ... ekaphotthabbam pi ... samanupassāmi yam evam
itthiyā cittam pariyādāya titthati yathayidam, bhikkhave, purisaruųpam(purisasaddo,
purisagandho, purisaraso, purisaphotthabbam ). Purisaruųpam bhikkhave, itthiyā cittam
pariyādāya titthatėti"). (2)
So, females and males are the original
causes of sensual and sexual desires of each other. These desires existing in the
condition of impermanence, cause their pleasures and sufferings in which nothing sacred or
mysterious is present. Human beings from the state of life of no greediness, which is
regarded as the wholesome way of life, came to greediness; then from greediness came to
sensual and sexual desires which are considered as evil ones. Greediness, as discussed in
the operation of Dependent Origination, is the result of the operation of wrong thought -
which supposes that a human being has his own self or soul - leading to evil states of
mind as Lord Buddha taught:
" Monks, I know not of any other
single thing of such power to cause the arising of evil states not yet arisen or the
waning of good states already arisen as greediness. In him who is greedy, evil states not
yet arisen do arise and good states arisen do wane. Monks, I know not of any other single
thing of such power to cause the arising of good states not yet arisen or the waning of
evil states already arisen as good states of wanting little". (3)
("Naham, bhikkhave, annam ekadhammam pi
samanupassāmi yena anuppannā vā akusalā dhammā uppajjanti uppannā vā kusalā
dhammā parihāyanti yathayidam, bhikkhave, mahicchatā.
Mahicchassa, bhikkhave, anuppannā ceva akusalā
dhammā uppajjanti uppannā ca kusalā dhammā parihāyantė ti.
Naham, bhikkhave, annam ekadhammam pi samanupassāmi
yena anuppannā vā kusalā dhammā uppajjanti uppannā vā akusalā dhammā parihāyanti
yathayidam, bhikkhave, appicchatā.
Appicchassa, bhikkhave, anuppannā ceva kusalā
dhammā uppajjanti uppannā ca akusalā dhammā parihāyantė ti"). (4)
A persons thought that every
existing thing has its own self means "I am", "I was", "I will
be", "I should be", or "May I be", etc. This thought implies the
meaning of "craving for existence" therefore Lord Buddha taught there are
eighteen thoughts which are haunted by craving concerning the inner self, and eighteen
thoughts which are haunted by craving concerning what is eternal to self as follows:
"And of what sort, monks, is craving that ensnares,
that floats along, that is far - flung, that clings to one, by which this world is
smothered, enveloped, tangled like a ball of thread, covered as with blight, twisted up
like a grass - rope, so that it overpasses not the Constant Round (of birth), the
Down-fall, the way of woe, the Ruin?
There are eighteen thoughts which are haunted by craving
concerning the inner self and eighteen which are haunted by craving concerning what is
external to self.Now of what sort are the former?
Monks, when there is the thought: I am, - there come the
thoughts: I am in this world: I am thus: I am otherwise: I am not eternal: I am eternal.
Should I be: should I be in this world: Should I be thus: Should I be otherwise. May I
become: May I become in this world: May I become thus: May I become otherwise. I shall
become. I shall become in this world, I shall become thus, I shall become otherwise.
And of what sort, monks, are the eighteen thoughts which
are haunted by craving concerning what is external to self?
When there is thought; By this I am, there come the
By this, I am in this world, ...
By this, I should be: ...
By this, May I become: ...
By this, I shall become: ..." (5)
("Tanham vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi
jālinimsaritamvisatam visattikam yāya ayam loko uddhasto pariyonadho tantākulakajāto
gulāgundikajāto munjababbajabhuto apāyamduggatim vinipatam samsāram nātivattati, tam
sunātha sādhukam manasikarotha bhāsissāmėti. ...
Katamā, ca, bhikkhave, tanhā jālinė saritā visatā
visattikā yāya ayam loko uddhasto pariyonaddhotantākulakajāto gulāgundikajāto..
Atthārasa kho pan imāni, bhikkhave,
tanhāvicaritāni ajjhatikassa upādāya, attharasa tanhāvicaritāni bāhirassa
Katatamāni attharasa tanhāvicaritāni ajjhattikassa
Asmėti, bhikkhave, sati, itthasmėti hoti, evasmėti
hoti, annathasmėti hoti, asasmėti hoti, satasmėti hoti, santi hoti..., api ha santi
hoti, ... bhavissanti hoti, ...
Katamāni atthārasa tanhāvicaritaāni bāhirassa
upādāya. Iminā asmėti, bhikkhave, sati, ... iminā santi hoti, ... iminā api ha santi
hoti, ... iminā bhavissanti hoti, ...".) (6)
From the above teaching, a persons
thought is but self thought which is haunted by craving, and is operating as craving. So
he is regarded as craving from which sensual and sexual desires arise. On the one hand,
the person considers his desire himself and is dipped in the desire and suffering, on the
other hand, Lord Buddha shows that that desire is not He, is not his, and is not his self:
he should leave it for peace of mind and happiness. The abandonment of desire may happen
immediately and effectively, or happen through a process. In the case of abandonment
process, the person should know which sensual desire to be responded to, and how much of
its requirement to be responded. In doing thus, he can control his mind from being embued
with worries, and recognize clearly that the fulfilment of his sensual desire and his
happiness are two separate things. With this attitude of life he enters into daily life
and faces to the objects of sensual desire with a great care.
For things seen, such as forms, sights,
cars, houses, clothes, ..., and even money, he cannot keep desiring for, because they are
so attractive and necessary to him. Facing those things is facing two aspects of their
existence: One is their satisfaction, another is their danger caused by impermanence which
will lead him to suffering.
For things heard, such as music, the voice
and sound of his opposite sex..., they may allure him and make him lose his self - control
to fall into troubles. These things also have two faces; one is their satisfaction,
another is their danger caused by the change which will bring him unsatisfaction
For good smells, good tastes and touches,
they also are very attractive: They may give him their satisfaction that makes his mind
burnt with thirst for pleasures: This is one side, the other side is their danger caused
by their change and transcience that will lead him to sorrows, pain, lamentation, grief
According to the teaching of Lord Buddha,
understanding an existing thing means understanding its satisfaction, its danger and the
way to come out of its bond. So, understanding sensual desire is understanding the
satisfaction of form, sound, smell, taste, and touch of males and females, their danger,
and the way to come out of ones attachment to them which is the Eightfold Noble Path
led by "right view" and "right thought". It is not the problem to come
to some definition of sensual desire or to fulfill ones sensual desire.
Among sensual desires, sexual desires are
the strongest that need to be discussed separately.
IV. 1.2. SEXUAL DESIRE
With regard to the story on "On
Knowledge of Beginnings" (Aggannasuttam) as mentioned, sexual desire is but human
beings greediness developed at its high level. This greediness influences strongly
on mens mental, oral and bodily activities which are called volitional actions (or
Kamma). It is grasped by the intention (or volition) of a person, so it may be controlled
or destroyed by that intention. For a Buddhist monk whose intention is to realize a
Brahmacariya life sexual desire is being abandoned thoroughly. For a Buddhist layman or
laywoman, whose intention is to live a family life in sexual pleasure, sexual desire is
available, except sexual misconduct, as the following teaching says:
" What are the four defilements of action that are
abandoned? Taking life is one, taking what is not given is one, sexual misconduct is one,
lying speech is one. These are the four defilements of action that he abandons. Thus Lord
Buddha spoke". (7)
(" Katam assa cattāro kamma-kilesā pahėnā
honti? Pānātipāto kho, gahapati-putta, kamma-kileso, adinnādānam kamma-kileso,
kāmesu micchācāro kamma-kileso, musāvādo kamma-kileso. Imassa cattāro kamma- kilesā
pahėnā hontė ti. Idamavoca Bhagavā".) (8)
Regardless of living a Brahmacariya life
or a family life, a Buddhist should realize the truth of sexual desire to deal with it .
It is a desire of a very sweet feeling caused by a touch of sex - organs, so it belongs to
the operation of "ignorance" leading to suffering. In other words, to the regard
of wisdom it is suffering. No mystery exists in it, except "ignorance". The
change of life and of the sex itself is its aspect of danger, including some terrifying
problems caused by it. The way to come out of its dangers is to come to the regard of
wisdom and the operation of wisdom. Understanding sexual desire is such a regard of wisdom
to be brought up. A persons regard to sexual problems and sexual desires is very
important. From this regard his psychological reactions and his behaviours towards them
arise: enjoying them? Controlling them? or abandoning them? and how? - So, ones
behaviours towards sexual problems are not the "I", the "Mine" or the
"My self". They are not either any major part of what is called personality at
all. They exist as a dream which is present when ignorance is present, and absent from
mans life when ignorance is absent.
IV.1.3: DESIRE FOR EXISTENCE
For those who are tired of desire for
sensual pleasures, they come to the desire for existence called rupatanhā or bhavatanhā
in Pāli. This is a higher and more delicate level of desire, i.e., desire for a state of
mind abiding in the First Meditation (Jhāna), the Second Meditation, the Third or the
Fourth Meditation. In thefirst meditation, their mind abides in initial thought (vitakka),
sustained thought (vicāra), rapture (pėti), joy (sukha) and one - pointedness of mind
(ekaggatā); In the second one, their mind abides in rapture, joy and one pointedness of
mind; in the third one, in joy and one pointedness of mind, and in the fourth, in
one-pointedness of mind.
When engaging in sensual pleasures, a
person wishes that may the object causing his feeling of pleasure be permanent: this is a
manifestation of "desire for existence".
Such is the arising or existing of
"desire for existence"! Such is the satisfaction of "desire for
Impermanence is the aspect of suffering
"desire for existence" and "right view", "right thought"
which sees the truth of all above mentioned things open the way to come out of their
bonds. Meditative thoughts are only mental activities belonging to aggregate of activities
which is suffering, therefore a number of human beings may leave "desire for
existence" for "desire for non - existence".
IV.1.4. DESIRE FOR NON-EXISTENCE
Those who are tired of sensual desire and
desire for existence tend to come to desire for non - existence or annihilation, because
for them if existence is suffering, non - existence, in their belief, will be happy. And,
psychologically when a person is tired of existence, he automatically thirsts for
non-existence or annihilation.
In reality, desire for anything is but a
desire belonging to the aggregate of activities, and so it will leada person to suffering
of some state in the Round of Rebirth - That state of mind is appropriate to Aruāpa
The satisfaction, the danger and the
"way out" of the activities aggregate are those of "desire for non -
existence", of course.
In short, desire is the root cause of
suffering, and it itself is suffering as Lord Buddha declared in the Discourse on
"The Analysis of the Truths" (Saccavibhangasuttam) of the Middle Length Sayings:
" And what, your reverences, is the Ariyan truth of
the arising of anguish? Whatever craving is connected with again - becoming, accompanied
by delight and attachment, finding delight in this and that, namely the craving for sense
pleasures, the craving for becoming, the craving for annihilation - This, your reverences,
is called the Ariyan truth of the arising of anguish" (9)
("Katamancāvuso, dukkhasamudayam ariyasaccam?
Yāyam tanhā ponobhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatra tatrābhinandėni, seyyāthėdam :
kāmatanhā, bhavatanhā vibhavatanhā idam vuccat āvuso, dukkhasamudayam
Wherefore? - As the writer discussed in
"the operation of Dependent Origination", no desire can exist by itself: its
existence is but the existence of the twelve causes of Dependent Origination: This means
suffering, sorrow, grief, lamentation, etc. already exist in it: or, suffering, sorrow,
grief, lamentation, ..., and ignorance have made it up.
Moreover, "desire" always
require the presence of the subject and object of desire: the subject really is the five
aggregates, and the object also is the five aggregates which mean suffering as discussed
in "the operation of the five aggregates". If a person understands the operation
of aggregates, he will at the same time understand the truth of "desire",
regardless of desire for whatever. He may come to the following conclusion for himself;
the subject of desire is something empty and impermanent; the object of desire also is
something empty and impermanent, so desire for whatever thing means an emptiness desires
for emptiness, or impermanence desires for impermanence: this has nothing to do with him
at all. In realizing that thing, he really comprehends what desire is, and sees the way to
come out of its bonds. This truth can be seen by practising Insight (vipassana): in this
case the practician sees with wisdom the selflessness or emptiness of the five aggregates;
from this seeing, desireless thought arises in him together with thought of liberation.
Through this experience, he realizes that desire does not exist in seeing the things with
wisdom; it exists only in regards to things dominated by ignorance.
Such is desire.
IV.1.5. REGARD OF WISDOM
The grasping of the five aggregates arises
from the regard of the perception of selfness. This regard is the original cause of
psychological reactions of a man towards things. When a person regards good - looking
forms, his craving for them arises; when he regards bad looking forms, his
discontent thought arises; when he regards normal forms, his illusion exists. All the
above thought of craving, ill-will and illusion are the causes of his immediate troubles.
Similarly, when a person thinks of things,
his thinking is considered as his regard to things: this regard is done by his thought and
influences strongly on his mind. Let us observe the fact that a person is given a blow at
his face, he feels painful physically in a minute, but his thought of that blow causes him
to feel much more painful mentally. In the case of a persons partner turned
unfaithful to him, he will feel so painful emotionally. So, for him, controlling his
regard to things will be much better than controlling his psychological reactions. This
interesting experience was taught several times by Lord Buddha in different teachings,
especially in the doctrine of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness (satipathāna). This
doctrine requires the practician to follow and just observe his breathing - in and
breathing - out, his feelings, his thoughts and his mental objects (or the five
aggregates, the five hindrances, the Seven Factors of Enlightenment).
For breathing - in and breathing - out, in
observing and following them again and again, he will see directly what is called
breathing - in or breathing - out is but the movement of his thought, his lung and a
current of air. It is empty. And he also sees what is called a man is but mental processes
and physical processes joining each other. There is no entity called the "I",
the "Mine" or the "my Self", all is empty. Seeing this, the practician
becomesfree from craving for them and experiences the peaceful state of mind regardless of
the conception of what a man really is.
For feelings, in observing and following
them again and again, he will see similarly: What is called a feeling also is but mental
and physical processes: it is selfless. Nothing called the "I", the
"Mine", or the "my Self" exists. Seeing this, he becomes tired with
feeling, and becomes free from it. His thought abides in rapture, joy and peace then,
regardless of any question about what happiness is, and of any answer to it.
For thoughts, in observing and following
them again and again, he will see plainly what is called thought appraising thing and
creating values of things is but conditioned and empty. If breathing - in or breathing -
out stops working by any reason, thoughts disappear, and a persons life and his
cherished dreams of life turn senseless. Realizing this, he desires nothing: worries
disappear and peace of mind appear, regardless of any point of view on life: nihilism or
For mental objects, the practician with
his peaceful mind analyses them and sees their emptiness: they themselves show their truth
of selflessness, impermanence and suffering. In seeing that with Insight, he becomes
detached from things, and starts the steps of destroying ten fetters for deep vision.
The above practice of regard of wisdom is
Called "vipassana", in Pāli term, which means seeing things directly by
intuition, or obtaining inward vision or spiritual insight (11).
That regard of insight may be trained in
"Look upon the world as you would on a bubble,
Look upon it as you would on a mirage,
The King of death does not see him |
Who thus looks down upon the world" (12) Dhp. 170
"Evam lokam avekkhantam maccurajā na passati.
Yathā bubbuālakam passe, yathā passe marėcikam" (13)
Or it is trained as the following teaching
" He who knows that this body is like froth,
And has learnt that it is as unsubstantial as a mirage,
Will break the flower- pointed arrow of Māra,
And never see the King of death". (14) (Dhp. 46)
("Phenupamam kāyamimam viditvā
Chettvāna mārassa papupphakāni
Adassanam maccurājassa gacche".) (15)
The above verses imply similar senses
- regarding things as transcience, impermanence, and
selflessness will help the practician calm down his fire of desire until the moment it is
- regarding his own body in the same way, the practician
will realize nothing called the "I", the "Mine" or the "my
Self" exists and will desire for nothing.
The above regard going with wisdom will
break the operation of ignorance leading to birth - and - death: This is the meaning of
"the King of death does not see him". It must be cultivated day after day
without a break as Lord Buddha said:
" ... Consider some person who abides seeing
impermanence in all compounded things, conscious of it, aware of it at all times
continually, without a break, marking it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom; and destroying
the cankers, he enters and abides in the cankerless mind - emancipation...; this, monks,
is the first gift - worthy person.
Consider some person who abides seeing ill in all
compounded things...; seeing no - self in all things..., seeing happiness in the cool,
conscious of it, aware of it, at all times...; this, monks, is the first gift - worthy
(" Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sabbasankhāresu
aniccānupassė viharati aniccasannė anicca - patisamvedė satatam samitam abbokinnam
cetasā adhimuccamāno pannāya pariyogāhamāno. So āsavānam khayā... pe... Ayam,
bhikkhave, pathamo puggalo āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhineyyo anjalikaranėyo anuttaram
punnakkhettamlokassa..... Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sabbasankhāresu dukkhānupassė
viharati... pe... sabbesu dhammesu anattānupassė viharati... nibbāne sukhānupassė
viharati, sukhāsannė sukhapati samvedė satatam samitam... So āsavānam khāyā...
pe... Ayam, bhikkhave, pathamo puggalo āhuneyyo... pe... anuttaram punnakkhettam
Praising the person seeing suffering,
impermanence and selflessness in all compounded things means praising his regard to things
which causes the destruction of all sufferings. That is his regard of wisdom seeing things
as they really are.
In the here-and-now, everybody is
completely free to be the master of his regard to things, to be the master of the train
running to the station of peace and happiness. It is that regard of wisdom which is what
human beings are expecting, because it shows the truth of the world, happiness of human
beings, and brings to light all mysteries in life.
However, for worldly people, their regards
are always hindered by the five hindrances (restlessness, torpor, desire, ill-will and
doubt) and a lot of evil thoughts, such as self-pride, jealousy, anger, worry etc., Which
are governed by self-thought and self-perception. At this stage of mind, the practician
needs to practise bare-attention with which he is just aware of what the things really are
without any psychological intervention.
At a higher stage of mind, a worldly
mans regard works together with his meditative thoughts and wisdom, so his regard
then is called the regard of clear vision, clear insight or wisdom which can see the truth
of man and life regardless of any conception of personality or reality.
So here emerges the problem of seeing
existing things as they really are by the regard of wisdom instead of the search for any
theory of personality or any conception of reality.
Together with the above regard to things,
a number of Buddhist spirits of individualized education are necessary to be introduced in
the next chapter.
(1) : Gradual Sayings, Vol. I, PTS, London, 1989, pp. 1-2.
(2) : Anguttara-Nikāya,Vol. I, PTS, London, 1961, p. 1.
(3) : Gradual Sayings, Vol. I,..., pp. 9-10.
(4) : Anguttara-Nikāya, Vol. I,..., p. 12.
(5) : Gradual Sayings, Vol. II, PTS, London, 1992, p. 225.
(6) : Anguttara-Nikāya, Vol. II, PTS, London, 1955, pp. 211-212.
(7) : "The Discourse on Singālovāda", tr. by Maurice Walshe,..., p.462.
(8) : "Sinigālovada-Sutta", Digh-Nikāya, Vol. III, PTS, London, p.181.
(9) : "Analysis of The Truths", Middle Length Sayings, Vol. III, PTS, London,
1990, p. 298.
(10) : "Saccavibhanga-Sutta", Majjhima-Nikāya, Vol. III, PTS, London, 1977, pp.
(11) : "Pāli-English Dictionary", T.W. Rhys Davids & William Stede, PTS,
London, 1989, p. 627.
(12) : Dhammapada, tr.by F.Max Muller,..,verse 170.
(13) : Dhammapada, Devanāgari, Delhi Uni.,..., verse 170
(14) : Dhammapada, tr.by F. Max Muller,..,verse 46.
(15) : Dhammapada, Devanāgari, Delhi Uni.,..., verse 46.
(16) : Gradual Sayings, Vol. IV, PTS, London, 1989, p. 9.
(17) : Anguttara-Nikāya, Vol. IV, PTS, London, 1958, pp. 13-14.